Premium Plugins?

[jneilliii]

As far as the 'simpler' plugins go.... How many of them would you guys estimate get created by user requests? If a coder just decides to write one for himself (for personal use, just for fun, or whatever), and then make it available to everyone, I'm thinking they shouldn't expect any payment beyond the occasional tips. However, if someone requests a new plugin (as I recently did with the time stamp on the timelapse), well maybe that would be the time to ask the requester to pay a nominal fee, with the understanding that the plugin would still go into the public domain for others to use. Do you think that may be a viable option to get a little extra something for your work?

So in response to this question, the majority of all my plugins came from either an idea here on the community forum or a feature request posted on the OctoPrint repo's issues. Of those, I personally only use 4-5 of them, but for me it's usually the challenge or the "that would be neat" thought that will get my attention and get me interested enough to do one.

I know I'm going to get blazed here by some of the participants in this thread, but one of them was for MyMiniFactory and I did the development for free because I was interested personally in the technology being used in the background to work with their infrastructure. Yes, I could have charged them an hourly rate for the development (and probably should have), but a lot of it was my learning of the technology and that was what I enjoy. There were agreed upon terms up-front however that the plugin would be free to all and that users of the plugin would not have to pay for its use as a premium service with MyMiniFactory the way some of their integrated printers require. In my mind, that was a way I could give back to the community and increase OctoPrint's visibility in the 3D printing space (as if it wasn't already known...lol). No idea if that actually made any difference whatsoever to increased adoption of the platform or not.

That being said, the majority of support issues/requests that I have to deal with are not the MyMiniFactory plugin but my other plugins like BedLevelVisualizer and the various smart plug controlling ones. Most are feature requests that extend the capabilities of the plugin, making it a stronger product, but none the less takes time to develop. These are not changes I would have done personally as typically when my plugin is released to the plugin repository it's already at a state that I'm happy with and works for me with my specific setup. In some cases the requester or group of people wanting the same feature would chip in so I could purchase a specific version plug for example and further development.

This is preaching to the choir, but it's sad that people don't tip/donate more to the developers that put long hours into making plugins if it's for personal use or not. Showing appreciation for something that someone else has created and provided for free is a lost art in this day of millennial entitlement. Having something in the plugin manager that would increase the visibility of tip/donate links would be appreciated in my opinion and might get more response from the end user versus having it embedded on the plugin's page or the repository's readme which might not be seen at all.

Worse yet is the "developers" that fork your plugin, change only the author name, readme and update urls to their own repository and then bundle it in a "octoprint kit" for sale and don't give you a dime. I hope that they are at least donating to Gina the way they say they are. (ie TH3d). At least the forks still have my paypal donate links, but as stated above are probably never seen.

[FormerLurker]

ook at mobile stores, android especially, and consider it is 100x harder to make android app then octoprint plugin...

I have to take issue with this. I've made several android apps, and they are NOT more difficult in general to create. The vast majority (though definitely not all) of the complexity comes from what you are trying to create, not the platform on which it was developed. You certainly could create an OctoPrint plugin that's easier to create than an android app, and vice versa.

For example, the last android app I created used GPS, an sqlite database, had built in messaging, communicated with a server, had configuration settings, custom map overlays, etc.. But, it was ALL written with Java. No HTML, no css, no knockout, python, no C++, no javascript, no gcode, etc. In a sense the barrier for entry was actually quite a bit lower than an OctoPrint plugin, especially if you have prior Java experience.

I paid for s3d and today I think it was mistake

I purchased S3D as well, but ONLY because my users were slicing with it, and I needed it for testing/development. For me this was a cost of supporting other users. I NEVER use this slicer for my own prints.

I also purchased a raspicam. Though they are cute, they are (arguably, of course) much less capable than similarly priced webcams. I was just tired of saying, "I don't know," when people asked for support. I will be able to re-purpose this camera for something fun, probably, and it wasn't too expensive, so that's good

I dealt few days ago with a guy who complained that octoprint is to complex as he can't use gui to setup everything (wifi, ip addr..)

These complaints are the special sauce that allows us to create even better products. They direct us to problems we haven't yet solved, or new issues that our products have created. Obviously it's going to be difficult to configure wifi via a web GUI before there is a network connection, but it gives us a good example of how programs are always in constant need of improvement. It's an iterative process. If all plugins were one and done types of applications, there would be little need to have this discussion. Unfortunately all you have to do is look at the github issues for any particular plugin and you'll find lots of good reasons to continue to improve existing works. I'm not saying you disagree with this at all, just stressing the point.

This has been really interesting so far, and I'm glad we're having the conversation. So far I have to say that I'm leaning towards better user exposure to the various tipping mechanisms that already exist.

[OutsourcedGuru]

@FormerLurker Indeed, that's part of the cost of doing "business" (in air quotes) because you're providing a free plugin that costs you every time a user needs you—from your own wallet—to buy yet another webcam to test compatibility.

Or for me, it was the purchase of a Raspi 3B+/A+ to test OctoPrint-USBControl. For @jneilliii it was to purchase yet another TP-Link product, for example. (You should have charged MyMiniFactory some earnest money, dude.) For the person who's writing filament run-out plugins they're probably buying several types of switches.

Those of you who've read my posts know that I'm cheeky with respect to users who want a plugin author to "just" buy something to support their own needs. I'll even say something smarmy like "and then the user bought the plugin author a webcam and sent it to his house" to kind of nudge them into proper behavior. But of course they never do.

[FormerLurker]

I always appreciate some snark, and you are a master

[arhi]

I have to take issue with this. I've made several android apps, and they are NOT more difficult in general to create.

I think you are looking at it from a different perspective. Android app is not more difficult to make for you or me, nor it is difficult to create by any real programmer, BUT, think about total beginners that fork the project and change 3 lines of code... how many androids app on github that you can clone and compile (remember back few posts we talked about ppl having issues to "compile" - here you need to change app id, generate key, repack, register on google play store, publish...) compare to 3 click fork for a octoprint plugin ... for you is same, for me android is 100000000x easier then octoprint as I hate with vengence everything related to python so writing python is a big issue for me... but I'm talking about "average joe" that normally creates noise..

because my users were slicing with it,

again, we are having very different point of view (apart from agreeing that s3d is crap, if I read your comment correctly), as you have "users", and I look at whole 3d printing ecosystem as a playground where I don't have users, only colleagues

These complaints are the special sauce that allows us to create even better products

you are trying to be too positive here looking at it from best possible angle .. yes, of course, we all do what we can to make world the better place but huge number of these users are just lazy ppl that believe they are entitled for help/support just because they want help and support.. and that is why things like all in one kits need to exist and ppl selling them should make money, should give % to fossel and should of course offer support

So far I have to say that I'm leaning towards better user exposure to the various tipping mechanisms that already exist

imho tipping will bring more $$ then selling the plugins, but that's just opinion I can't back up with any data ... actually more a feeling then opinion

" and then the user bought the plugin author a webcam and sent it to his house "

I have to say that I got a bunch of product in my short life in open source business in order to support them... the most expensive product I ever got is intel's itanium multi cpu board loaded with ram to help properly solve intel c++ compiler bugs and get mysql to properly run on it ... so this works, if ppl need support for shit ppl will get you shit to support, I shipped bunch of stuff to other ppl and other ppl shipped bunch of stuff to me, it's kinda common... if you are purchasing hw to support your users you need to figure out what your bottom line is... the "you want me to support and test XYZ, send me the XYZ.." it's very simple

[FormerLurker]

I think you are looking at it from a different perspective.

Yes, I was coming from a different perspective, specifically someone interested in creating something from scratch with perhaps no knowledge of the underlying technologies/languages.

hate with vengence everything related to python

I felt the same way when I was first working on it. I'll never get over the fact that spaces/tabs are important. That's just nuts and still causes me problems. I prefer strongly typed languages (Or at least languages that support strong types), mostly because the code completion/navigation capabilities are MUCH better in these languages, and there is much better compile time error detection. I like to code for as long as I can before compiling, and hate finding a bunch of syntax errors at run-time.

apart from agreeing that s3d is crap

I wouldn't go that far. Some of my test prints turned out better when sliced with simplify, some didn't. I personally didn't feel it was much simpler, but I'm probably not the target audience. That being said I probably would have been disappointed with it if I purchased it with the thought of actually using it as my primary slicer.

the most expensive product I ever got is intel's itanium multi cpu board loaded with ram to help properly solve intel c++ compiler bugs and get mysql to properly run on it

I learned CPU architecture from the itanium way back in the day. One of the engineers from this project gave our class a brief presentation and answered some of our questions. It was so cool at the time.

Also, are you a c++ person? I haven't used it since high school (late 90s), and recently wrote a bunch of (terrible but fast) code that desperately needs a code review (after I clean it up a bit, been struggling with code formatting standards as well since I'm out of my element). Most people I talk to won't touch c++ with a 10 foot pole, and I'm stuck using ... v11 I think.. which makes it even worse.

Edit: I realize now that I digress. I will try to stick to the topic from now on.

[OutsourcedGuru]

the "you want me to support and test XYZ, send me the XYZ.." it's very simple

Once upon a time, a printer manufacturer would just send you a printer so that you could write the driver for it. It was just assumed that that's the way things were.

It's not cheeky to ask Panasonic to comp you a C270 or similar. Give them a call, get a representative assigned to you and have them send you a box with ten different cameras in it. (Last year I had a representative at MasterLock who was working with me on development.)

[FormerLurker]

Give them a call, get a representative assigned to you and have them send you a box with ten different cameras in it.

That's an interesting idea. There are several printers I'm always trying to give support on, and I can't try out the hardware. MK3, Enders and various Lulzbots come to mind. Also sony DSLRs. I'm not sure why these seem to give everyone problems, but they seem like intractable problems.

This would definitely alleviate a good chunk of the development costs. I also pay for PyCharm, though I could get an open source license for that I think, as well as browser stack, which I have yet to apply for.

[arhi]

I felt the same way

using the darn thing for many years now, the feeling never went away ...

Also, are you a c++ person?

yup, c/c++ is what I do daily, also have to debug a lot of asm (reading trough core dumps without symbols both intel and sparc cpu's)

I haven't used it since high school (late 90s)

so you are ~7-8 years younger then me that explains your ability to work with python

Most people I talk to won't touch c++ with a 10 foot pole

ping me when you think you are done I'll most likely find some time

digressing .. well this theme must digress in order to come to any point, there is no yes/no answer to any of the questions here imo.

Once upon a time, a printer manufacturer would just send you a printer so that you could write the driver for it. It was just assumed that that's the way things were.

tbh I assumed it still is like that ?!?!?
I remember when we offered to send Enrique (the guy making skeinforge) a rapman3 then rapman 3.1 then rapman 2000 then mendel then... and he didn't want to, he was making skeinforge without a printer to test his work on, never wanted to accept a printer and I personally offered twice, bitsfrombytes offered twice or 3 times and I heard some other companies did too .. that was kinda normal (the only thing he accepted was that I host skeinforge for free)

It's not cheeky to ask Panasonic to comp you a C270 or similar.

if I'd be the one writing drivers for them I'd be asking them 100% ... I kinda assume everyone does that ... also I kinda assume - hey, I wanna use this type of device, can you support it, here's a device you can use to test your work...

This would definitely alleviate a good chunk of the development costs.

I think public bashing goes a long way here (remember the toshiba BT module some decade ago) ... so you ask them to give you device and if you need something else like .h files from their own driver for e.g. .. and if they don't you actually put online that you do not support 'cause you asked but could not get a device for testing.. usually the device arrives quickly

[OutsourcedGuru]

I remember when we offered to send Enrique (the guy making skeinforge) a rapman3 then rapman 3.1 then rapman 2000 then mendel then... and he didn't want to, he was making skeinforge without a printer to test his work on, never wanted to accept a printer and I personally offered twice, bitsfrombytes offered twice or 3 times and I heard some other companies did too .. that was kinda normal (the only thing he accepted was that I host skeinforge for free)

As a consultant for Robo 3D I was like "okay, can I get a Robo board (their controller) for remote development?" Head of Development: "No, we don't develop like that and no, you can't get one no matter what..." (Later that day) Me, to the I.T. Manager, "can I get a Robo board so that I can do some remote development?" Him: "Sure, here's the latest version". The other manager nearly soiled his diaper when he heard I had one.

[arhi]

Him: "Sure, here's the latest version". The other manager nearly soiled

yeah, having normal and far from normal managers in same company is not rare ... but you asked, and you got it.. and yes, I can say often you have to ask 2-3 times at 2-3 different places but eventually you get it... or, more often then not, depends on what you work on, ppl send you their shit even when you don't ask, just to "make sure your shit works ok on their shit"

[fieldOfView]

Congratulations on getting MFGs to work with you! I can barely get them to respond to my tickets

It is a totally different proposition to ask a software maker for support than it is to get asked by a hardware maker to help them adapt software for their hardware. Anyway, my point was that you can see making plugins as an investment. A risky investment, because you don't know if it will pay off.

Also, if you work on Cura or know the devs, maybe you can convince them to stuff the settings into the gcode like every other slicer out there.

The problem here is that this is not something that Ultimaker needs for their printers. So they have exactly 0 incentive to spend time on it. Let me know - in a different thread - what setting values you need and I'll gladly make a plugin for you that can be added to the Cura marketplace.